Curse

Gwenhywar · Aug 10, 2005, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

Europe has had it almost all day today. The same guild took it over and over and over again. I seen it so many times that it was annoying. Congrats Europe. I wish I remembered the guilds name, I would like to congratulate them for owning everyone for such a long period of time.

Esotheric Warriors definitely deserve a monument from all euro players, since they're pretty much our only chance to enter UW/FoW

One correction though: it was not "whole day", it was during night in Europe, already past midnight when they first took the favor. For some reason they always seem to be winning very late ... how many people can afford to go to UW from 1am-4am during workdays? heh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antagonist

Korea: 20.000.000
America: 2.000.000
Europe: 200.000

I've seen these numbers before and by all means I can't believe they are accurate or even realistc. Are people honestly trying to tell me that Guild Wars sold as many copies as The Sims ?

These numbers DO NOT RELATE TO GW! It's the number of ALL ONLINE GAMERS in different markets in the world, for ALL online games. ANet mentioned it in one of their articles, I wish I remembered where I read it.

I have not seen anywhere the exact numbers of players in GW, has anyone? So while I think the PROPORTIONS between these numbers can give a hint as to regional distribution of GW players, do not speculate on the numbers themselves please...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCS

Yeah those numbers didn't make any sense to me but the OP said it so I'm not arguing with him when it only helps my point.

Her. And if you had read WHAT those numbers referred to, instead of speculating, it would make sense -.-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antagonist

Again you miss the relevant point: UW / FoW and the new maps are endgame content for people who beat the game if they are not into PvP. Fissure armor is only available there. Plus, it's important for PvP people to unlock skils. Less skills mean less chance in tombs means less favour means less skills... see where I'm heading ?

Signed under this.

It was such a demagoguery for someone from American server to suggest that places where characters that have completed the game can easily acquire loads of exp and find/craft the most expensive weapons/armor in the game "would not be missed" by players that had no chance to go there. Riiight ...

dargon · Aug 10, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

To all of you suggesting that favor be changed from nationality to an ingame mechanic, such as choice of god, here's a monkey wrench for you. Nationality (for the most part) determines which server you're on. Your Tombs team is composed entirely of people from that server. Change this to pick a god when you start and either it'll be exactly the same thing (europe = balthazar, etc) or you'll have mixed teams. If you have a mixed team, how do you determine which god just won? 8 people on the team, 7 people follow dwayna, but joe blow the leader follows melandru, who just won?

Rayea · Aug 10, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

which is why i ay simply use the chosen god of the group as a Avatar in the Underworld that give ou a special Quest when your server wins the HoH battle and your server people go into the UW.

so, for whatever reason, Balthazar is the God of the Day for the UAS server. ok, so all that day, while the yanks hold the HoH, the koreans and the euro groups can still go down to the UW and Fissure
(cause its now open to all, they take the favour part and cause it to mean exaclty what it says. the Gods dwell on the server that holds the HoH and nowhere else.)
so, for all the time that the balthy usa people hold the Hall, when a team from the USA server troops down to the UW, almighty Balthazar is waiting for them at the entrance, in Avatar form, and He has a request of your group.
He want you to do some Quest for Him.

if, at the same time, a euro or korean server group go into the UW, they find....No Balthazar. the UW is exactly the same as it was last time.
the USA team, however, find a subtly changed instance of the UW, and they are the only ones that can go play in it.

this alows both PvP and PvE ppplayers into the area.
this solves the problem with servers not getting into the UW because the Favour of the Gods is linked to entrance of the UW.
and...this gives those whose teams are holding the HoH a reason to go ito the UW, other than to grab xp, ecto and so on.

QuixotesGhost · Aug 10, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

Possible solutions:
1) Change of the way favor is gained - sort of an affirmative action to give a handicap to the minority player base. Let Europe gain favor after 3 battles won, not 5 - this would even out the fact that there are less competitors to fight for the favor.

How 'bout we weight the wins depending on the last time a particular region got favor. Something like... Every 8 hours without favor reduces the number of wins you need by one to a minimum of 3. That way we spread around the favor without specifically perfering the euros.

GhostPoet · Aug 10, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

I think discrimination is a harsh word for something that isn't really the game or the designers fault...the fact is..the europeans just are not playing as much. That's it. simply as that.

Rayea · Aug 10, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

GhostPoet, we ARE playing just as much.
we ARE trying as hard (admitedly, the one that know what they are doing are trying as hard)

however, its just a problem of too many groups to fight against.
if theres 20 or 30 reoups altogether, all fighting to hold the HoH, how many are euro? if it is 40% USA, 40% korea and 20% euro, what kind of fair odds are those?
and those are rough persentages, so dont quote me on em.

if you had to wait till 12 am all day, every day or so for your server to hold the HoH and for you to be able to get int these area, you would be screaming as loundly, id not louder.
not everyone can afford to wait up till past midnight where they are to even start to get a PUG together, let alone get to the UW and do some exploring, especialy since we dont all have all day to get our sleep back. lots of us have to work in the mornings, and we have to go to sleep so we can get up and pay for our essentials, like food and housing payments ect.

im not saying that its all players that are on school hols, or dont work that are the ones winning and holding the HoH, but that a lot of us have to go to sleep around midnight so we can get up ar 6 am to get ready for work.

MCS · Aug 10, 2005, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Again you miss the relevant point: UW / FoW and the new maps are endgame content for people who beat the game if they are not into PvP. Fissure armor is only available there. Plus, it's important for PvP people to unlock skils. Less skills mean less chance in tombs means less favour means less skills... see where I'm heading ?

Once again, since people are commenting on this, agreeing with it, please don't tell me what they are when everything would seem to suggest they aren't. They are NOT PvE content for people who aren't interested in PvP or you wouldn't have to PvP to get into them. Period. You may WANT it to be that but it isn't and please don't say it is when it clearly isn't.

The argument that you need FoW/UW for exp to get skills to win the HoH doesn't even make sense.

I see euro teams in the Tombs a lot, I see them losing a lot as well, I really doubt they're losing because they couldn't get 8 skills they needed. If they can't get the 8 skills they needed maybe they should try PvEing first.

You keep trying to say we win because America has more people but we really just have more idiots. It's not like every time someone wins it's just some random American pug that won because there are so many Americans in the tombs. It's almost always a group I recognize who won because they're good.

noblepaladin · Aug 10, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

It's pretty hard to handle this situation, because UW and FoW won't be cool bonus areas if there isn't a restriction in entering it. However, if ANet decides to balance out the times more, then it would still seem wrong because there would be significant amounts of time where 99% of the GW population cannot access UW or FoW. And population of players is related indirectly to who has the favor. Sure, it's the good groups that earn the favor for their country, but a country with significantly more players (such as America or Korea compared to Europe), the chances are that the country with more players will have more good players. The few groups in Europe that are good simply can't be online all the time to compete with the many groups in America and Korea that are on the same competitive level.

LathalDraugr · Aug 10, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Anybody who is being objective on this issue has to agree that the current system is unfair towards people who play on the European server. Aside from the population differences between servers, there's the language issue and the fact that any english speaking european who wants to get good teams for HoH is already on the American server we also have the problem that you cannot deserve something for belonging to an arbitrary group. According to the people who say the current system is fair I didn't deserve to enter UW/FoW while I was on the European server but by switching to the American server I was magically transformed into someone who "deserved" to get into UW/FoW without ever stepping into the HoH once.

If access was limited to those who actually won the HoH the current system could be called fair. As it is it merely serves to benefit anybody on the American or Korean servers while screwing anybody unwilling or unable to move from the Euro server. Which is of course why a few players on the American servers want to keep it that way. The worst part is that I suspect most of the non-1337 teams who win often couldn't care less about who has the favour.

Anyway being on the American server now it's not much of a problem for me. And I would strongly suggest to anybody still left on the Euro server to switch, since A.net seem to have no plans to change WaW. All we've had was a vauge threat from Gaile Gray that people who moved servers would regret it. Perhaps paying for empty servers will motivate them to do something about it. If not at least you'll be able to get into UW/FoW more than once a week.

ExDeity · Aug 10, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by noblepaladin

It's pretty hard to handle this situation, because UW and FoW won't be cool bonus areas if there isn't a restriction in entering it. However, if ANet decides to balance out the times more, then it would still seem wrong because there would be significant amounts of time where 99% of the GW population cannot access UW or FoW. And population of players is related indirectly to who has the favor. Sure, it's the good groups that earn the favor for their country, but a country with significantly more players (such as America or Korea compared to Europe), the chances are that the country with more players will have more good players. The few groups in Europe that are good simply can't be online all the time to compete with the many groups in America and Korea that are on the same competitive level.

I couldn't agree more. And this post of yours was made with a tone that didn't come off as arrogant as the one I attempted to use last night, when adding my own two cents (the arrogance was unintentional- for the record).

It's not that we shouldn't care about European gamers. Or, at least, that A-Net shouldn't care about European gamers (playing GW, specifically). It's that, if you want to get technical, it would be hurting the Korean and American, LARGER markets, just as much as it would be hurting Europe, if we were to provide a handicap for ANY country to gain favor. And something about this idea makes me think that the guilds like Esoteric Warriors (or whatever there name happens to be... I've seen them with favor before, but simply don't remember exactly- my apologies) would feel a great lack of empathy for their competitive spirits in winning, DESPITE THE ODDS, if a handicap was given to such a great guild when they obviously didn't need it.

I hate to sound arrogant again, but the problem really isn't with the method that favor is earned, as much as the problem lies within the lack of motivation Guild War players in Europe seem to have for winning favor. I have seen about three or four different guilds win favor for Europe, ever, and many of those have repeated. It seems the competition in Europe isn't at the same level that it is in America or Korea, especially considering the fact that a previous user posted, about how the game is a top 5 seller, somewhere in the UK.

What can I tell you? To just get better at the game and stop whining? That wouldn't really be fair, either, because I understand it isn't "that easy". I, myself, have never won the favor for my country, so I can't tell others that they need to be trying harder to earn something they don't see very often. But, I must say, if this is a problem for people in Europe, it is just as much duty for the European players out there to advertise this game as much as they can, because whatever A-Net is doing for marketing out there, it just isn't working. I know that the population in Europe is enormous, although I'm not sure if they enjoy video games on the scale that Americans and Koreans traditionally have. Perhaps if more Europeans played the game, the problem would naturally fix itself. It isn't like Europe is INCAPABLE of winning- it's just that they don't do it often enough for Europeans to be satisfied.

But let's face it, folks... Of the three countries/continents that I've seen win favor so far, we all knew one of them had to be the worst at it, and if it happens to be your country, then "Tough Luck" is really all I have to say. There is more to this game than going to the FoW, and if you want to explore more at that game, then try hard enough to formulate a strategy that beats every other. THAT would be the perfect resolution.

Rayea · Aug 10, 2005, 10:24 PM // 22:24

how many times do we have to tell you...

WE DONT WANT HANDICAPING!!!

*cough*
we want EVERYONE to be able to get into the UW and Fisure.

the best way to do this is to disconect entering these places and holding the favor of the Gods.

by making the Favour for the Gods something you want for Quests, it may incourage PvE players to try PvP on the HoH to try to help them get the Quests from the Gods.
it will also totaly do away with whineing about my server has not got the favour, boohoo type posts that are also complaining about not getting into these areas.

lets get one thing VERY clear. we euro players love video games as much as the yanks and the koreans do. we have a rich gaming legacy and culture just as they do, some games have only ever come out here in europe. the fact that most of the publishing houses delay shiping and release over hear is such a big deal to us, we import many games just to be able to get them early.
the fact is, unfortunately, compared to the amounts of koreans and yanks that play games on the net over doing other things like local stuff and going out on the pull/piss, we euro peeps seem to do that more (the pull and piss part.)

over hear, going out on a friday/saterday night and getting blitzed outa your skull is a national passtime, along with the other olympic sport, sneaking off with someone you have never met befor and getting a quicky.
what 18-35 something is going to choose to stay home and play a game when he or she can be out getting tail?

and i will say this, too.
if the underworld was just for PvP, why the frell can the PvE players get into the damn place?!
if its supposed to be for PvP, why not totaly frelling barr anyone with a PvE character from going into it, thus also barring them from getting the armour and so on? hmmm?

suggesting that we all move to american servers, sheesh, my be fine where you are, but how would you like the 200 thouseand euro creeps to all come mess up yer servers with our german and french and italian and so on?dont you have enough trouble with the languages you already have?
with the teens and pre-teens you have?

oh, and strategy? pff, read why everyone is mad abour Natures renewal, then tell me theres stratey going on...if its not the healing balls, its the spirit spam.

and...tonight, since about 7pm grench mean time, euro had the favour...still had it when i logged of about 11pm, and was holding it from both usa and korea.
i see no reason why the Gods in your Area plan cant be set up. it solves a helofa lot more problems and whinging than simply saying Tough Luck, piss off or join the USA servers.

Pandanslesdents · Aug 10, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExDeity

What can I tell you? To just get better at the game and stop whining? That wouldn't really be fair, either, because I understand it isn't "that easy". I, myself, have never won the favor for my country, so I can't tell others that they need to be trying harder to earn something they don't see very often. But, I must say, if this is a problem for people in Europe, it is just as much duty for the European players out there to advertise this game as much as they can, because whatever A-Net is doing for marketing out there, it just isn't working. I know that the population in Europe is enormous, although I'm not sure if they enjoy video games on the scale that Americans and Koreans traditionally have. Perhaps if more Europeans played the game, the problem would naturally fix itself. It isn't like Europe is INCAPABLE of winning- it's just that they don't do it often enough for Europeans to be satisfied.

That would make sense if there was a version available for all the europeans languages. Currently you can have : english, italian, french, spanish and german. If you don't speak any of these languages, you're stuck. These 5 languages only cover a small portion of all the spectrum of various languages spoken in the various coutries than make Europe. So, out of that 200000 potential players in Europe, how many can effectively play that game? Things are different in the US and Korea, you only have one language to cover, so having a bigger player base is easier to get than in Europe.

Antagonist · Aug 10, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCS

Once again, since people are commenting on this, agreeing with it, please don't tell me what they are when everything would seem to suggest they aren't. They are NOT PvE content for people who aren't interested in PvP or you wouldn't have to PvP to get into them. Period. You may WANT it to be that but it isn't and please don't say it is when it clearly isn't.

That's a bizzare logic. As others already pointed out as long as your server has favour everybody can get into FoW / UW. Yes, even all those lazy PvE people who never entered the tombs once. It's normal PvE content for players on the american server who have access to it all day long without giving a thought how favour was obtained. And why should they ? For the US server and to a lesser extent the korean server FoW and UW are part of the game world with short downtimes during the day.

And last time I checked these maps I couldn't PvP there so claiming it's part of the PvP game is hard to comprehend at best. And since I'm in repetition mode I can also repeat that the endgame PvE content can only be obtained there. Yes Sir, Fissure armor has no effect upon PvP and serious players don't care about it because they rarely use their PvE chars for PvPing. Much to cumbersome to change. The hardcore PvP player base HATES PvE. It's a mechanism forced on them to unlock skills. To ones I talked to don't give a **** about FoW / UW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCS

The argument that you need FoW/UW for exp to get skills to win the HoH doesn't even make sense.

I see euro teams in the Tombs a lot, I see them losing a lot as well, I really doubt they're losing because they couldn't get 8 skills they needed. If they can't get the 8 skills they needed maybe they should try PvEing first.

As I explained above FoW and UW are PvE which for some weird reason is linked to PvP. There are no other maps compared to FoW and UW. The amount of XP points per hour you can get there is unmatched and now that there are builds which can solo UW it's even more frustrating for european players to watch their US counterparts getting a skill point in a fraction of time they would need farming the "unlocked" maps. Skills are the whole fundament of GW's combat system so the groups who have more unlocked have a greater chance of creating efficient builds and counters. Less skills -> less likely to be competitive.

I'm tired of this debate and honestly I don't care either very much other than trying to soothe my desire for fairness as long as I can solve the problem easily by switching to the US server. And the great exodus will continue despite Gaile's vague promises that something will be done about the system.

WaW is a failed concept. People are not more competitive because of it. They are either frustrated or indifferent (see switching servers). Trying to keep the status quo will only lead to a deserted european server and I don't think that's in ANet's interest.

Nightwish · Aug 11, 2005, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayea

the fact that the fissure and UW are linked to PvP was planned by a-net.

it is not just for PvP players to get extra XP for thier skills and so on.

it is a place where the PvE comunity can go once they have finished the main storyline, somewhere they can work in till the next big update, like the sumer one, or till the new add on comes out.

and the reason behind the connection favour and the UW?

to incourage those PvE players to dip their toes into the PvPers pool and play a little.

i repeat again....
THE UNDERWORLD DOES NOT BELONG TO PVP ALONE, IT IS FOR BOTH SIDES TO USE!

ahem....and no, this game is NOT unpopular in europe. for the last month it has held the number 5 spot in Game stores PC top ten, and the month befor that, it was number 2.

comparing guild wars to the sims is irrelivant. the sims is not a multiplayr game, nor is it online. you do not need to have the interent to play it. anyone that had a half decent pc could grab a copy and play without the need to download or go online.

europ isnt realy asking for the other two sides to be handicapped, just because there are more american or korean server players, we are saying that it is unfair to force us, and in effect, ALL guild wars players, to have to wait till their server gets favour to enter the underworld.

by disconecting the favour from the underworld, everyone gets to enter, it sill costs cash, and you still have to know what you are doing when you are in there.

and, so that the players that are PvPing for the chance, theres no reason why their server, which has the favour right now, cant have a suitable reward.
dont forget, players PvPing are not just doing it for favour, they do it also for faction, which they get faster by holding favour. so by setting it up that the server that keeps the favour gets the Gods on Their server, and only thier server means that once those groups are in the underworld, they could receve some unique or special favour related quests, from the very gods themselves.

we know they can do it, just visit Sardelac when your server has favour and speak to the Avatar of Dwayna. she will give you a quest, so it *is* possible.
why not simply give a special quest ot quests, only finisheable while you are in the underworld? change the instance of the underworld slightly when your server has the Gods, so as to be different.

make the favour of the Gods be more in keeping with what it is named.connecto it to the gods themselves, not entering the underworld.

That sounds plausible but dont kid yourself that there wont be any more complaints

The problem here is not UW/FoW alone, as long as there are unique rewards given to winning a favour, there will be dissatisfactions by non -pvpers. So even if UW/FoW is available to all players and replaced by some other rewards, there will still be people complaining.

So either there are no rewards or the rewards should be only be significant in pvp arenas. But you know what? That will lead to complains about unfairness in pvp battles

p/s. Dont mistaken by my post that Im not in favour of sharing. Im not that selfish. Just that its hard to come up with something that actually satisfies all types of players.

QuixotesGhost · Aug 11, 2005, 01:51 AM // 01:51

I hate being ignored...

Okay the whole idea as I see it behind WaW was to encourage the pendulum balance of favor to swing back and forth through 2 methods.

1) By tying the zones to real-life areas you give different servers the "peak-time" advantage back and forth to encourage favor switching. As in if it's 7pm in Europe, noon in the America, and midnight in Korea, Europe has the peak-time advantage becuase a higher percentage of its players will be on. Then
6-7 hours later America gets this advantage, then Korea, the Europe, then America, then so on and so forth, encouraging the pendulum to swing back and forth.

2) Access to UW/FoW. If a server has favor, you'll see a percentage of its level 20s siphoned off to go play in these areas instead of going to Tombs. Reducing the pool of players of the current favor holder and encouraging a favor switch to someone else.

That said these two methods to encourage favor to swing back and forth is not enough for Europe to gain favor consistently. This is what I propose:

Every 8 hours without favor reduces the number of wins you need by one to a minimum of 3. That way we spread around the favor without specifically perfering the euros.

This third method to encourage favor switching should be enough for the euros to be able to hold the hall on a consistent basis.

Red Sonya · Aug 11, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08

[b) I don't like the idea of European players getting an advantage in PvP tournament play either, and believe that everyone should be on equal footing. So, how about removing teamspeak from all PvP tournaments and have everyone rely only on target calling or minimap drawing? That should solve any language barriers in ANY district, as well as provide tighter teams (after all, you'd REALLY have to know your team's tactics well)]

Ohhhhhh I'm for this idea 100%, remove TS/VENT entirely and that way "everyone" is on a equal footing and doesn't have to listen to whinning crying badmouth little brats while playing in the tournament. I quit playing the HOH tournaments just because of that. Too many want TS/VENT required to join and I'm a much better player than many of them that have TS/VENT and I know it, but, I will not use TS/VENT ever again.

Fantus · Aug 11, 2005, 07:21 AM // 07:21

How do you think you could "remove" Teamspeak? It's not a part of the game but a independent piece of software. Besides that I think it's technically infeasible, I like the idea, though.

Gwenhywar · Aug 11, 2005, 10:27 AM // 10:27

For all those who wondered where the numbers 20 million - 2 million - 200k came from, I found the article - CEO of NCSoft mentions them here:

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?op...474&Item id=2

Quote:

In its attempt to grow the online gaming market, NCSoft’s Guild Wars has turned the MMOG model on its head. U.S. CEO Robert Garriott reckons giant ambitions justify mighty risks. (...)

“When we launched in the U.S. we noticed there were about 20 million online subscriber gamers in Asia, about two million in the U.S. and about 200,000 in Europe,” Garriott explains. “Every time you move east, you lose 90 percent. How can we change that? Issues like broadband expansion are outside our control but we can influence genre expansion, appealing to new age groups, ease of play, and billing methods.”

Gwenhywar · Aug 11, 2005, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost

Every 8 hours without favor reduces the number of wins you need by one to a minimum of 3. That way we spread around the favor without specifically perfering the euros.

That sounds like a lovely way of balancing things, without giving anyone a reason to moan, since it doesn't give direct aid to any particular region! ANet, are you listening to your players?

Thanks to the awesome performance of guilds like Esoteric, Czech Legends (?), and the Wrong Guild, and afterwards koreans and americans conveniently fighting between themselves, we held favor for several hours yesterday so I was finally able to form a great party and explore all Fissure yesterday night. Was so fun, and netted me ~63k exp, besides some nice drops (now talk about how unimportant these areas are to players ...)! I'll share a pic from our happy little group taking a little break after 3 or 4 hours of action

(I'm the monk in the corner, in silvery armor).

Chronic Fatigue · Aug 11, 2005, 01:17 PM // 13:17

I loved the favour held by europe last night, managed to make three runs, two very profitable. Took in excess of 50k exp and thanks to some lovely drops I took close to 150plat worth of drops. Thanks very much to the guys I pugged with, one evenings play earned me the same as 2 months of grinding without favour.